Education

Shall we go on to talk over together the thing that we wished to talk about this morning: relationship? I think the word means - please correct me - from Latin, to refer to, to look back. I think that most of our relationships are that. And we are going to talk over together the whole significance of relationship as it is, and in the understanding of what it is actually go beyond all the implications of that narrow limited relationship into something wider and deeper. That's what we are going to discuss, talk over together.

So what do we mean by relationship? Please, this is not a talk by me or a solo, but please join all of us together in this because we are all involved in some kind of relationship or another - with a wife, with a husband, with a girl, or with a boy, with parents, with our relationship to society, to nature, to the whole world, our relationship to all the things that are happening in the world, the terrible things, the violence, and also the extraordinary technological advancements and science and engineering and so on. So not only the limited relationship between two people but also our relationship with the whole world - have we any? And so on. So shall we start it? Will you start it?

K: Let's begin, sir. Forget what I have said. What does relationship mean to you, to each one of us? I am married - suppose I am married - I have children, what is my relationship to my wife, to my children, and what do I mean by relationship? Am I related to nature, to the world, to the ecological world? Am I related to what is happening in Nicaragua, between the Arab and the Jew, the starvation and so on and so on? So what is my relationship with the most intimate and the most, far outward? We have to begin with the near, the closest, and then work forward. So if you are married, if you have got a girlfriend, or if you have no girlfriend, and so on, what actually is our relationship with another.

K: Look, madame, relationship is one of the most important things in life. relationship between me and another, me with many others, which creates society. And in my relationship with another there is always tension, there is always a sense of division, and therefore conflict, and a sense of guilt, a sense of possession, a sense of responsibility, a sense of protection, all that is involved in it, not only with the children but with each other. And that apparently from the ancient of times till now it goes on that way, constant conflict between you and me - not you and me, you know what I mean - my wife and myself or with another. Why do we go on that way? Why do we live that way? What is right, or wrong in our relationships with each another? I want to begin closest and then gradually work to the world about us, not only in England but in India, Japan, the whole world. So I must begin near to go far. So I see as it is now without exaggeration, without giving false values, it is a constant struggle, constant pain, constant tension, a division. If we accept that as being normal then it is all right, but if one doesn't accept it as being normal, healthy, then we have to proceed to find out whether it is possible to end that kind of relationship, in which there is no shadow of conflict with each other. Is that possible? What are the implications if it is possible, and whether one can actually in daily life do it. That's the issue we are going to talk about this morning.

Q: I have a relationship with another in those moments when I am aware of them and aware of myself - in that moment. But as I approach it I feel fear, and I feel either pain or a threat.

K: That's right, sir. So all that is implied - pain, attachment, jealousy, anxiety, fear and the great sexual pleasure, and so on - the whole of that is implied in our daily relationship. Why do we accept it? Why don't we question it? That's what we are here for.

Let me again repeat: we are here, this gathering, the group of us are supposed to be serious people, with a serious intention to understand our problems and resolve them, not in ten years time, but here, now. Otherwise it is not worth talking about it, it becomes theoretical and nonsensical. Personally I am not interested in that kind of stuff. If I am married, if I have a problem of that kind, I want to resolve it instantly. That may be my peculiar tendency, or my way of looking at it, I don't want to carry a problem overnight, specially a psychological problem, which is relationship with another. Either I say, that's normal, I can't help living that way and for the rest of my life it is that - I may change wives, I may change husbands, but the same pattern is repeated over and over and over again. And as I am a serious man I want to find out if it can end, what is the manner of ending it, and what is a way of living in which there is no conflict at all. That's what I want to find out. At least that's what we are gathered here, to do that.

Q: We then overlook the original meaning of that word 'relationship', which means to carry back.

Q: relationship is something goes out from one person and something is carried back from the other.

Q: Without the carry back, the re-late, there won't be anything called relationship.

K: No, I am questioning it now, sir. I am questioning why human beings, including us, we live that way. Is it part of our heredity, part of our tradition, part of our habit, so we have got used to it and say, yes, that's the way to live. The trees struggle, everything struggles, this is part of nature, inevitable that in our relationship there must be conflict. We can find all kinds of excuses but the fact remains which is, a relationship between two people, give and take, and looking back, and all the rest of it. Now why - we are questioning - why we accept that way of life. Why we accept wars, why we accept violence and so on, and so on, so on.

Q: You said relationship creates conflict.

K: No, no, I didn't say that. Not, 'I said', what is the fact. The fact is in our daily relationship with each other, man, woman and so on, there is division, there is conflict, there is struggle and all the things involved in it, which we don't have to describe in detail because everybody knows what our relationships are.

Q: Sir, isn't part of the tension in relationship because another can hurt you, and you are afraid of this. You know they can say a word...

K: Sir, first let's see what actually is taking place and then we can move from there. If we accept that this kind of struggle in relationship is healthy, and in nature everything is struggling - a tree in a forest is struggling to have light, a tiger is chasing a deer. You follow? There constant struggle. And we may say to have this conflict is healthy, helps us to grow, all kinds of things, and you accept it. Right? One generally accepts it unless the struggles become utterly intolerable, then there is divorce, then there is the breaking up the family, which affects the children, and so on, so on, so on. If that is a fact, and it is generally a fact, then how do we approach the fact in order to bring about a transformation in the way we are living? I can't explain. I think it is fairly clear what we are talking about, isn't it?

Q: Sir, I feel that there is no true relationship if there is no love.

Q: If there is no true relationship I feel it is because there is no love in us, inside us.

Q: Before I can come to any consideration of love I have to somehow face the fact that I am threatened by a relationship.

K: That's what I am saying, that's what I am asking. Are we clear what our actual relationships are at present, now, not in some future if and when.

K: So is our relationship based on fear, getting hurt?

Q: I think we do have relationships with people but they are limited because we are always looking for something to share. For example, nationalism will bring a lot of people together and they will have a sort of relationship, but the moment there is nothing that interests you in a relationship with someone, you won't care.

Q: Like here we are sitting together and we have relationship because we all care about the same thing.

Q: There is also another factor of relationship which he was talking about.

Q: Might it help, can we go back to the question of how is it that we can approach this, so that it will bring about a transformation in relationship?

K: And also the gentleman raised the question, we are anxious about our relationship because it is based on fear of getting hurt.

K: We will go into it, sir. But first do we realise, if I may ask, that at present, as we live daily, our relationship is a peculiar affair - to put it mildly? A sense of division, you and me, you with your ambitions, you with your career, you with your passions, you with your ambitions and so on and so on, and me with my ambitions, and greed and so on. This is our actual daily state. I have a profession, and I spend ten hours at it, earning money, I come home, and she has also gone out to earn money and comes home, and we are both tired, irritation - you know all this, why should I discuss it, I am not married, so.

Q: And also with little children. We enter a peculiar relationship with very little children where one feels they can look through one, so there is a block in the relationship.

K: What I am asking, madame, is, do we realise actually the way our relationships are. Do I know my relationship with my wife, or with girl or boy, is divisive and because it is divisive there must be conflict? That's all, I am starting from there.

K: So what shall we do? Just verbally talk about relationship? And keep our fears and let things go on as they are?

K: Therefore, is it a question of fear that we don't talk about our relationship?

K: If it is fear, let's tackle fear. Let's go into the question of fear. But if you say, sorry, I don't want to discuss any kind of relationship with my wife, or with the world, or with anything because I am afraid if I do go into it something may happen in our status quo, therefore let's leave that alone and let's talk about god and golf, or the beautiful days. Is that what you want? If you want to talk about god and the beautiful days or something or other, cut me out. It's very simple.

K: All right, sir. Now wait a minute. Do I really want to find a relationship with somebody in which being hurt is impossible? Is it possible never to be hurt? Even that, to discuss it.

K: In all relationships.

Scott Forbes: It seems we have a self, and that self is what gets hurt, and that self is what prevents us from having any relationship.

K: Either we accept being hurt, that's inevitable; or there is a way of living in relationship where there is no hurt at all.

K: No, you see you are moving away from something, which is, sir, we are talking about relationship. relationship with my wife, or with my girlfriend, or with my boy, or whatever it is, relationship. In that relationship we get hurt. Right? Is that what you are saying?

T: Wouldn't you say that this painter is made up by everything, everything around me. I mean because in relationship everybody has images and it's like a whole board of bits, whereby you put one person over there and the other there and yourself on a certain place on the board, and it seems our relationship is...

K: Is it that we are afraid to discuss this question of relationship? For you it is very easy, because you are not involved for the moment. But if you get married, have children, then it will become a problem. So for you it is no problem so you could say, I am not afraid of it. But having married, having children, the whole business, somebody comes along and says let's talk about relationship, I am frightened because I may discover things which may be shattering.

Q: Well, there's relationship without marriage.

K: Oh, darling sir, don't you... Yes, I can have a relationship without getting married.

K: Ah, after the hurt... Is that all. The image exists and I get hurt, not after. You see, please, sir, I am asking you a simple question, first, if you don't mind. Is it that we are frightened to discuss relationship, in which is involved dependency, attachment, and jealousy, sexual pleasures, remembrances of all that, is it we are avoiding to look at it? That's why we are all so silent?

K: No, I have asked sir a simple question: are we frightened to discuss about our relationships?

K: Wait, I am just asking sir, forgive me, for just two minutes, you can come afterwards. Are we frightened to discuss relationship, in which is involved attachment, dependence, sexual pleasures, the separateness - my wife and me are two different beings, there is a division, and open up this enormous complex thing in relationship. Are we frightened to look at it?

Q: Which is conflict and relationship.

K: Which is conflict and relationship. You are attached to me and I like it, so as long as both of us like it there is no conflict. But suppose I begin to say, no, sorry, don't depend on me, it is rather irksome, then conflict comes in you. So again, you see, how do we... I have asked this question, please answer it, loudly or to yourself: are you frightened to discuss this whole question of relationship?

SF: But we all have relationships whether we are married or not, or whether we have them just as friends, we all have relationships.

K: That's the whole point, sir. If you acknowledge that this problem of relationship is one of the greatest importance in life, and I am not frightened to look at it, frightened to go into it, see the whole picture of it, what is its nature, its structure, what is involved in it. And you can only do that if you are not frightened. But at the beginning if you are frightened you can't open the door.

K: No, no. You see, you have drawn a conclusion. I haven't asked... I said do we want to go into this question, whether we are married, not, married, no girlfriend, or boy and all the rest of it, the meaning and the implications and the nature and the whole business of relationship. And I say if you really deeply want to go into it and understand the whole beauty of it, the greatness, the tremendous thing involved in relationship, you must approach it without fear. But if I am already caught in it, and my wife and I, and I am afraid to open it because something might happen between her and me. I would rather remain in status quo, as we are, rather than open the door. That may be most of us.

K: Can you follow the life of another? All the variations, all the subtleties, all the nuances, the movements. Sir, what are we talking about! Do we want to go into this question of relationship without fear?

K: Yes? All of us, or one or two, the rest say, hey, go slowly, non morto allegro, piano, piano! Sir, we have come together to have a serious enquiry into our relationships, into our pleasures, into our sorrows, into the whole problem of existence. If you are afraid at the beginning you can't go into it. So if you want to discuss fear let's talk about it and wipe it away. Not say, well, next year I'll come back to fear.

K: Yes, I know all that, Tunki, look, old boy I am asking something else. Before you put your own question, I put it first, so give me... (laughs). I asked you, do you really want to go into the question of the great complex question of fear without fear? Do you want to into the question of fear and therefore enter into the whole problem of relationship? And you can only enter it if you are not afraid of it.

Q: Sir, that is part of the problem. The problem is, here and now we don't have a problem with relationships because we are only listening, we are talking. The problem is later. And now we can understand the words, that's quite easy, it is not necessarily fear of going into the problem that makes it difficult.

K: No, Tunki, that's not it. I am frightened because I have committed myself to a woman or to a man, and call that relationship, I am frightened to open that cupboard. There may be terrible skeletons in it. So I would rather discuss round it and go anywhere but say, look, I want to go into this, understand it, and go fully into it. But apparently you don't.

K: Ah, (laughter) I am saying, sir, perhaps the language difficulty here is, we are saying you cannot understand the depth, the beauty and the whole complex question of relationship if there is any kind of fear in you about it. That's clear. If I am afraid to enter, to understand the relationship, what is involved in it, I am afraid because - you follow? - god knows what is going to happen. I might leave my wife. I am not saying that - you follow? So, I say, please, let's talk about relationship.

Q: I wonder if it is possible for us at all to approach things in this way. Like today we tried to talk about relationship and we find that when we are afraid we cannot discuss it. You see tomorrow we will talk about fear, and we will find something else will stop us from talking about fear, and then it goes on and on.