Krishnamurti at Rajghat

I am sorry you can't see the sunset. I think we said that we would talk over this evening the question of meditation. The meaning of that word - dictionary meaning - means to ponder over, to consider, to think over something, and also it means to measure. The root meaning of that word, to measure. And meditation, in that sense, to ponder over, to think over, to consider very deeply, and also the measurement which is the material process of thought. All that is implied in that word. I wish, if one may say so, that you had never heard that word, that you didn't know a thing about meditation - either the Indian form with all its systems and philosophies and gurus and all the rest of it, or the Tibetan or the Zen. If you didn't know a thing about it then you would be curious to find out. But unfortunately most of you have heard it or practiced some kind of meditation and so your mind is already conditioned. And being conditioned, when one uses that word, you are already caught in a pattern, already caught in the network of concepts, conclusions. So if one could start anew, if you can, as though you didn't know a thing about it, like a boy or a girl who doesn't know mathematics, then we can go into it together. We can enquire into the structure and nature and the beauty of it and all the deep significance, what is implied in that word. Because I don't know why one should meditate at all. I know that's the fashion. There are all kinds of schools, not only in this country but they are spreading like mushrooms in America and in Europe with their gurus, with their systems, but one never asks why one should meditate at all, and what is implied in that word and its action and its movement.

We see we live a disordered life, a contradictory life, a life of fragmentation; each fragment, if one has observed oneself, is in opposition to the other and therefore there is this sense of deep, inward disorder. And one of the factors of this disorder is to act neurotically - neurotically in the sense contradictorily: say one thing, do another, think one thing and put on different masks or different environmental demands. So it is an area of the mind in which there is disorder - if you have observed yourself, this is obvious. And the brain - please, this is all part of meditation - and the brain can only function effectively, naturally, easily when it has order, when there isn't contradiction, when it is completely stable, when it is not driven by various influences or various desires. You are following all this?

When a country is in disorder, then out of this disorder comes a dictator, whether a form of political tyranny or a democratic tyranny. But when one observes, disorder in oneself produces or brings about an authority who we hope will put order... give us order. This is happening all the time. So please bear in mind, right through all the talks or whatever you do, that in these matters, in the matters of the mind, the spirit, in the matters of truth, there is no authority ancient or modern, because the one who follows destroys truth, and the one who says, 'I will show you the path', destroys truth. So, as we live in disorder, the brain can only function when there is real order, effectively and therefore harmoniously, non-contradictorily. Right? And this order is not a blueprint to be sketched out and then conform to it, but rather the understanding of the disorder, being aware of the disorder in one lives: in our relationships, personal or our relationship to society, to our neighbour and so on, so on. In all that there is disorder, contradiction. And part of meditation - only a small part of it - is to bring about this order which is virtue. Without that you cannot meditate, it has no meaning. It's like going and sitting and breathing and doing all kinds of tricks and standing on your head or trying to awaken your kundalini or all that kind of stuff, it has no meaning. But what has meaning is to bring order in one's daily life, honestly, deeply. And you cannot bring about order without understanding the disorder in which one lives.

And, as we said, meditation means measure, not only to ponder, to think over, to consider profoundly but also it means measure, to measure. And one has to understand this whole technological structure in which we live, which is part of measurement, which the Greeks have handed over to the Western world. Right? May I go on with it? I am not a professor, I don't read books, thank god. I read occasionally detective stories (laughter) and weekly magazines to keep up with the world, but I don't read the Gita, I have never read the Gita or the Upanishads or philosophies and - because somehow I am bored by it. Is that all right, my saying so? You won't throw bricks at me? Right. And I have noticed, I have observed, because I've seen a great many people, so-called intellectuals and so on, so on, so on, it has been observed that the whole of the Western world is based on this technological principle of measurement, because without measurement you can't have technique. And the Asiatic world including India said measurement is an illusion, and to find the immeasurable you can't use measure. But they use measure as thought to find the immeasurable. You follow? You understand this? So they are both the same, though one says measurement is necessary, the other says measurement is an illusion, and therefore to find the immeasurable, thought... measurement must come to an end, and to bring about an end to measurement, control thought. You understand this?

Now, what is the instrument of measure? It is obviously thought. Measurement implies comparison. Measurement implies distance. Measurement implies conformity - I conform to the pattern, the pattern being either I have created it or society has created it or propaganda has created it. So, measurement is the movement of thought - please listen, I am just exploring - is a measurement of thought... is the movement of thought in time. Right? All this sounds too elaborate, does it? Because, please, this is really important to understand with regard to meditation. If you are really interested in it, and you must be because the problem: can one live daily life without a single control? You understand my question? Because control implies measurement. Control implies domination. Control implies a division between the controlled and the controller. Right? This is obvious. And can one, in daily life, not theoretically or in abstraction or as a theory of ideas, actually live without measurement and therefore no comparison, no conformity, no movement from here to there - that is, being ugly to become something - you follow? - all that is implied in measurement. And the instrument of measurement is thought. Right? Please look at yourself. Thought is, as we said, is the response of memory, experience, knowledge. So thought is always... has its roots in the past. Isn't that so? It can project a future but that future is still from the past. The future, the present and the past are the measurement of time as a movement of thought. I wonder if you get all this. Is this all Greek to you? Or Chinese or what is it? - Tamil, no, Hindi. So, can thought, which is measurement - measurement implies conformity, comparison, adjustment to a pattern, adjustment to a tradition - can thought end?

I do not know if you ever tried to control thought. That is part of your meditation, your meditation. That has been one of the edicts or one of the traditions, if you are meditating, that you must control thought. But we never asked who is the controller. We have accepted it mechanically that we must control thought. From childhood in every school: control your thought. That's been told to us, that's is the pattern, but we have never asked ourselves or another, who is the controller. Is not the controller part of the thought? Of course. Right? Please see this for yourself. The controller is the controlled. I'll show you. Thought wanders - you sit quiet and you observe, and thought wanders off in various directions, and you have this pattern established through tradition that you must control it. And you spend the rest of your life controlling thought. And you think when you have tremendously controlled it, at last you have got something. And one questions this whole control, not only of thought, of desire, of every movement of desire, of pleasure and so on. We are educated to control, and I question this whole principle.

So that's one point. That is, thought is material process in time as measurement. The next question is: is it possible for thought, which brings about fragmentation because in itself it is a fragment-maker, can that thought come to an end? Uncontrolled, not driven to make itself come to an end - that is what you are all doing in meditation, and so you live in perpetual conflict. So can thought end and yet thought function when necessary? You understand? We said, thought is measurement. Measurement is knowledge, experience, memory, and from that background every reaction is the movement of thought, as material process. It is fairly clear. Thought must function in the technological world as knowledge, in the scientific world where there is accumulation of knowledge for the last two or three hundred years or five hundred years, and you can't just say, 'Well, that's not worth it' - it's part of our life. Knowledge, not only technologically, you must have knowledge to speak a language, to find out where your house is. So knowledge is absolutely essential. It's obvious. And we use that knowledge to try to bring about psychological change in ourselves.

So basically, fundamentally, knowledge is not the factor of transformation of man. There must be other factor. And that is the process of meditation, part of it. So can thought come to an end? You know, that's what all the people who have gone into the question of meditation have tried to do, tried to stop it, control it, subjugate it, force it and therefore their mind is twisted, is a tortured mind. This is obvious, isn't it? And a tortured mind, a distorted mind, a neurotic mind, an imbalanced mind, a mind that is not whole, how can that find truth? Obviously it can't. You may pretend, you may say, repeat Gayatri or god knows what else and it is still there. So it is imperative for a man who really is serious and wants go into this question of meditation to find out whether thought has its own place and never moves into other realms. That is, that is only possible when the controller realises that which he tries to control is the same; the controller is the controlled. And you will see, if you have gone into it sufficiently deeply, that thought cannot possibly understand what truth is. That thing cannot be described. When that thing is described, it is not the truth, it is a verbal description of something. The description is not the described, and we are caught in the description, and we say, 'Well, I heard you the other day, very good talk. You are talking pure Vedanta', or some other thing. You follow? Which is, their pattern is repeating. They haven't listened and they just continue in their old way because that's the easiest way to live.

So, to find out without effort whether thought has its own place, doesn't move in any other direction. Which means we have to go into the question of time. Sorry, this is all part of meditation if you are interested. Time is movement - right? - from here to there. Physically you need time to go from here to your house - may be two minutes or an hour but it... from here to there is a movement in time - in time by the watch or in time psychologically. 'I will be', 'I will attain', 'I will succeed', 'I will become nobler' - all that is a movement from here to there, which is the movement in time. That means direction. Right? And to achieve that end you must exercise will, and the exercise of will to achieve is the movement of thought or desire in time. Right? So can the mind be free of this movement, from here to there, psychologically, inwardly? And it can find out only when you see the fact that this movement from here to there psychologically is the illusion of thought which has projected an idea and wants to conform to that idea which is measurement. Right?

So, in meditation there is no direction. Right? Direction means from here to there - 'there' being enlightenment, truth or whatever you like to call it. So, a mind that has no - in meditation - no direction. The moment you have... there is direction, the space - space - is restricted. Right? Of course. One has to go into this question of space.

So, in meditation, the understanding of disorder and order, and therefore order, order which is not blueprint but a living thing, because you understand the depth and the structure of disorder in which it lives, and in the very observation of it, not in denying or resisting it but just observing it, comes mathematical order. And then the brain can function beautifully because there is no resistance, there is no contradiction. Then, that order means not only virtue, morality, but also in relationship between man and woman, in all relationship, order. And that order is denied when - please listen to this - when our relationship is based on image. When you have an image about your wife or the woman or the girl or the boy, about the other, the relationship is between these two images. The images are the ideas, conclusions, the picture, and therefore there is no relationship at all - please see this - and hence conflict.

So, order in relationship. And where there is order there is harmony and therefore there is compassion. Please, without compassion you can sit for ten thousand years breathing rightly, doing all kinds of peculiar tricks, you will never come to that thing which you call truth. And no control whatever, therefore there is space in the mind. When you have space the mind becomes silent, naturally. And this is important. You understand? Not all the tricks we play upon ourselves to make the mind quiet, by repeating mantrams, by, you know, transcendental meditation, or this, that, the other. You can make your mind quiet by taking a pill - much easier. Drug yourself, take a tranquilliser and the mind becomes very quiet. And you call that meditation. Whereas, when the mind has space, which means no direction, no operation of will and therefore no fear, then in that space there is silence. Mind is really quiet. Not made quiet, not through tortuous means brought about silence but actual silence, of which you are not aware. Because the moment you are aware that you are silent it is not silence. Therefore meditation is part of this freedom from the experience of being silent.

So meditation takes place when you are not there. You understand this? And we try through various means to wipe ourselves away, to destroy the 'me', which is to identify myself with the nation, which is another form of destroying myself, or identifying myself with an ideal, or identify myself with a cause - you follow? - we play all these tricks in order to get rid of myself. There are no tricks. The ending of the 'me' is to look at myself without the observer who is condemning, judging, evaluating, all the rest - just to look at myself, to observe without the observer. You know, it's one of the difficult things to do because when you see the river, of a morning or in the evening, with its light and the beauty of those extraordinary nuances of light and colour, it leaves a mark, an imprint on your brain. That becomes the memory. Then that memory is operating the next time when you observe. To look at that river but not let it make an imprint. Just to look at it. That is beauty. Beauty is not a memory, like love is not a memory.

So, this space in which silence exists is necessary, because it is only in silence in which there is no 'me' as the experiencer, a totally different energy or activity, a movement takes place, which is not time. Therefore the mind operating in the field of technology and at the same time silent. You understand? It is like two streams running together, harmoniously, all the time - not 'all the time', that's a wrong phrase, sorry, I withdraw that phrase - like two streams running together. And it does take place if you've gone into it very, very deeply. And this whole thing is meditation.

So, is there something like that? Something which is totally out of time, which cannot possibly be experienced, which cannot... thought cannot contaminate? Man has put this question, and perhaps some have come upon that and are silent about it, because the description is not the described and the one who described doesn't know because he is caught in the description, not in reality. So that... out of that silence there is nothing to be told. One can never say, 'I know', 'I have reached', 'I have found'. Therefore life is a movement not only in time, but also out of time. And from this arises a great sense of responsibility. Then you are not answerable to anybody - you understand? - to no government, to no guru, to no authority, but you are responsible, which means answerable. And you can only answer when there is compassion. Responsibility implies, freedom is compassion. And the whole of that is meditation.

Q: So long as the meditator exists in time, can there be a real meditation?

K: Can there be real meditation when there is no...

Q: So long as the meditator exists in time, can there be a real meditation.

K: meditation without time, can it be real meditation. That's right, sir?

Q: So long as the meditator exists in time, can there be a meditation at all.

K: So long as the meditator exists in time, can there be meditation at all. As long as I am moving within the area of time - time being moving from here to there, achieving this, that and the other - as long as my mind is living there, is there meditation at all? Is this, if I may ask, a theoretical question?

K: Psychological question. It all depends on what you call meditation. You may give one kind of meaning to that word and I may give, or another may give, a totally different kind of meaning. So, as we said at the beginning of the talk, according to the dictionary, which is after all, a dictionary means... which is a common thing to refer to by all of us - there it says, 'to think over, to ponder over, to be concerned with', and also meditation implies measurement. Now, I have... one has talked about that, not a meditation which is not that. When this is not, perhaps that is, but with this hanging round my neck, as it were, try to reach the other has no meaning. One lives in a prison, one can imagine that there is marvellous freedom outside. There is freedom outside, but you are living in the prison, therefore you are not free. So, to actually be free of that prison, then there is no question of freedom; there is freedom.

So our concern is not whether meditation doesn't exist as long as I live... as there is a movement in thought - to me it has no meaning, if you will forgive my pointing out - what has meaning is, one is caught in the trap of civilisation, in the trap of tradition, in the trap of all that we have talked about this evening. The mind is held in a vice. And to observe this without the observer - we went into all this - and that is part of meditation. And we went further and we pointed out there is a meditation of which you can never be conscious. And that comes into the whole question; one has to investigate the whole problem of sleep. I have no time to go into that, because we were discussing with some scientists and brain specialists the other day. And can there be a state of mind when there are no dreams at all? And what is that state, and what affect has it on the conscious mind? And that state, whatever that is, can that affect our daily life? Because, look sirs, we are concerned with daily life, not with theories, ideas and speculative suppositions. We have to transform our daily life which is so monstrous, because our daily life has created this ugly society. And without changing that society or transforming ourselves, which is our... which is society - we are the society - and without deeply transforming my conditioning it has no meaning talking about anything else. Begin there and go through, find out.

K: Who is yourself? Yourself is the structure of thought, and that thought says, 'Now, I have done mischief there, now I will do something else' - which is fragmentation. You understand, sir? Therefore, where there is fragmentation there must be conflict. And thought cannot canalise itself in the right direction. The right direction will be projected by thought, therefore that projection as a goal is another fragmentation. So we live in fragmentation, and therefore live perpetually in struggle and conflict. So we are saying thought, which has brought about this crazy civilisation, this society which is so utterly immoral, thought cannot solve it. Only you need... there must be a totally different kind of energy which comes when... with all this meditation and so on, so on, so on.